Open Season on Bald Eagles

This is the kind of psychopath mentality that we are up against in this crane hunt. This was part of a Kentucky Hunting Forums thread on sandhills where I had posted my arguments against the hunt. It was in response to my comment that I had heard that sandhill cranes really didn’t taste good…kinda gamey requiring lots of marinade. I had been taking some ad hominem attacks from other hunters when this guy popped off with:

“Originally Posted by westkybanded

“Well, you weren’t told by anyone who’s ever eaten one (sandhill). Supposedly the best tasting gamebird available this side of an Attwater’s prarie chicken!

Ancient relationship my foot… Lemme tell you something fella. I’ve met a lot of guys on this forum. Have made some of my best friends right here. Just about every single one of em is a killer. We don’t disrespect our prey, but we sure don’t go out to do some kind of dance with the ancestors or prayer to the mighty rabbit gods. We use what legal means we have at our disposal to dispatch our quarry and then we eat it, wear it, hang it on the wall, or do whatever the heck else we want to with it.

Do we catch some stuff with our hands and/or beat it to death with sticks? Yep. Why? Cause it’s fun.

I’m going WAAY out on a limb here, and guessing… Democrat?”

I don’t start none, but I don’t take none either…so I responded with:

“That is your prerogative. But your amateur psychoanalysis of me is irrelevant. Can’t you address even one salient issue that I have raised without boasting about how tough you are. We get it…you so bad. My grandma used to say that there are 3 kinds of people out there. Those that can only talk about themselves, those that only talk about other people and those that talk about ideas. Now, I am going WAAAY out on a limb here, and guessing you ain’t one of those wussies that does the latter. Huh, Killer?”

I later wondered aloud about when this psychopath who brags about torturing animals “because it is fun” would graduate on to humans. Later I was warned by the moderator that I would be banned from the site with one more outburst like that one. It would be no great loss.

You ain’t been around red-necks much, have you Jochen. The bald eagle is like the flag to them. They would NEVER, ever start a season on them. Them thar’s fightin’ words Julie is sayin’.

Yeah, Julie. Humor , satire is something you won’t find at pumped up hunters. It’s written in black and white so it’s gotta be true. Just like one of our founding fathers (Michelle Bachman) said.

Love it. So one’s a “flying flag” and the next is “ribeye in the sky.” Still scratching my head over how that got decided right over our heads. Thanks for the kind words, Jochen. I’m fed up with the “done deal” tone of the Federal Register “proposal.” It isn’t a proposal to open season on cranes. It’s a statement of intent. And it fails spectacularly to consider or even honor the majority opinion on this bird, which is that we should leave it alone.

Good afternoon Julie. Afternoon “Big Juan.”

Julie your satire is exactly true. You play ball within a system. There is an agreed upon procedure to opening up hunting seasons on certain species. When the conditions are satisfied and the public agrees it happens. Children whine when they don’t get their way. Adults I would hope behave better.

The main difference you fail to recognize is that Sandhills are a recognized game bird. Eagles are not. I would venture a guess they make poor table fare.

Sandhill cranes are recognized as a game bird by whom? I certainly don’t recognize them as a game bird. The Kentucky Coalition doesn’t recognize them as a game bird. The public is far from agreement on this proposal by KDFWR. And the “support” they claim to have received from hunters appears to be manufactured out of whole cloth.
Tasting bad didn’t save eagles from being shot by the thousands. State game departments paid people to shoot them. So how a bird tastes is immaterial in this discussion. My point is that anybody can propose that any species is huntable, and put forth a season proposal, asinine or not. A whole lot of people have a problem with KDFWR’s unilateral eight-hunter agreement that sandhill cranes should be hunted. Who’s whining? We’re fighting, Mr. Smash.

The State of Texas does. As does the State of Idaho. Minnesota, Arizona, Oklahoma, Kansas, South Dakota, North Dakota, Kentucky, Tennessee.

Curious as to what your collective opinions are on Tundra and Mute Swans.

Julie, I think you think a little too highly of yourself. It frankly doesn’t matter if you think they are a gamebird or not. It was decided long ago that they were. Long before either you or I were born. You are free to argue the merits of it I guess, but it doesn’t seem like a road worth venturing down. I suppose if you have plenty of time on your hands to grasp at straws it might fill some empty minutes. More headway could be made arguing populations or other more tangible things. Just a thought.

You birders arguments would be more well recieved if you composed a well thought out factual contering based upon facts and not fears and feelings.

Since the moderator “trust me” froze the Sandhill Crane thread on KY Hunting Forums, because as he said, “I’ve had enough of this thread and most others have as well. It served its purpose long ago.”, maybe they will engage me here. Apparently my “whining” and “crying” was intolerable, so he pulled the plug.

smashDN says: “The main difference you fail to recognize is that Sandhills are a recognized game bird. Eagles are not.”

Yes, but that is such a small POLITICAL technicality, isn’t it? I think that it was in 1918 that sandhills were officially considered a game species by a bunch of politicians…well after the species was already being slaughtered to near extinction. This was back in the dark ages for all animals, minorities, pollution, child labor laws, union busting, prohibition, etc. Haven’t we learned a lot about all of these things since then, and changed most of them for the better? Times change, ‘cept for sandhill cranes, as they are still a game species. Some people don’t change much either as Mr. Smash is on record of saying that he “would be perfectly fine with” the government starting a season on the bald eagle AND bottle nose dolphins. He justifies his position with, “Some people don’t get caught up in the “majesty” of an animal to base their feelings on it.” Yes sir, SOME people don’t. I am a licensed hunter, but I am not this kind of hunter.

Mr. Trust Me, says, “I think it is very worthwhile to note that sport hunting did not affect the sand hill crane populations. It was commercial hunting that did in the cranes,…”.

Actually, it wasn’t just commercial hunting that did in the cranes, it was ALL hunting combined that did them in. Really, in 1918 there was very little difference in commercial hunters and hunters in general, if the truth be known. There were few if any restrictions for harvesting waterfowl until the 1920’s, and then they had extremely liberal hunting regulations that allowed 107-day seasons and 75 ducks per day in most states. Even with these “restrictions”, enforcement was virtually non-existent. Conservation was in its infancy and not a very popular concept in a country that had known any limits up until then.

Trust Me: “I predict that Kentucky will kill a few sand hills this year, the studies will show that it has zero effect on the cranes, the bird watchers will still have plenty of cranes to watch and places to watch them, and the hunters will get to bag a few each year after, and we’ll go back to co-habiting peacefully with each other again.”

I predict that the 400 limit will be taken in 2-3 days. These birds glide in so slow and stall out when the get near the ground that you could shoot them with a .22. And they will come to a mop turned upside down with a smear of red paint on the top. Easy pickin’s. According to Loyd Ford, editor of The Lake News in Calvert City, and lifelong hunter in this area, “While the KDFWR says hunter success rates will be low, some evidence points in another direction. First of all, the cranes stop over at two primary points in Kentucky, Barren River Reservoir and a four-mile square section of farmland near the town of Cecilia. The reservoir will be off limits to hunters, but the feeding grounds near Cecilia will be like shooting cranes in a barrel.” and “The cranes that pass through our state are some other state’s birds in the first place. They just pass through here. We aren’t going to manage them, we are going to shoot them.” There will be 400 hunters packed into 4 square miles of farmland…they had better bring their unbrellas for all of the shot that will be a fallin’.

Aww, but that is just more “whining about evidence and facts and peer reviewed studies spewing incontrivertible data when… (I) …have nothing to go on but “majestic.” Right, SmashDN?

Mr. Daniels, you really can just suck the air out of a room, you know that?

As for engaging you, your fight went on for many pages, many days, and I don’t think Julie would appreciate that kind of exchange here. That certainly is not my purpose in logging on here.

Suffice it to say that painted mops and umbrellas and gliding approaches are not germane to the conversation, and bringing them up doesn’t change the hard facts, which you previously acknowleged, that a limited harvest of 400 won’t adversely affect the crane population, and will not prevent bird watchers from enjoying their time afield, and significant interest and financial contributions among the hunting crowd will benefit the crane population as a whole.

Thank you Trust me, I take that as a compliment. I think what I am saying sucks the air out of YOUR room, which is why you have already taken down the thread on your website…your boys could no longer breath. Which is why you must be here. I know that these fine folks certainly appreciate your concern for their feelings and that you just wanted to spare those tender feelings when you pulled the plug on their opportunity to read another perspective on that KY Hunting Forum thread.

I said that you were a smart man…and I don’t blame you for doing it because you know that some of these “fine folks” would love to see how you guys make your crane sausage…not all, but some. I know that you had no intention of starting a fight or irritating these kind folks in any way, because you wouldn’t want to motivate them to become even more active. I said that you were a smart man.

I am not trying to start a fight with you either, but hey, you followed me and I am just presenting the facts as I see them. As a licensed hunter, I came to your site and presented my best case against this hunt and asked if anybody could tell me what was incorrect about what I said. About all I really got was ad hominem personal attacks, questioning my hunting credentials, manhood, motivation, and the whacking of anybody else who dared to support my position. Not many did.

The CEO of BFI was quoted years ago in the paper saying that I had “bulldog tenacity”, maybe I do. I believe that this hunt is wrong on many levels. Trust me, its nothing personal…I am a former criminal investigator and that is just the way I do business. Some folks like you misinterpret this as me just being an A-hole, but really, it is just being very thorough in making my case. It is what I did everyday for years at KY EPA in the Environmental Crimes Workgroup. We had several hunters in that group,btw. Everybody knows who I am, and I stand behind what I say. Who are you?

But I disagree with what you said that I “previously acknowledged”…that is just not true.

What I said was that the ICF data indicates that the EP of Sandhill Cranes could sustain a limited harvest, PERIOD. I did not acknowledge that the ICF data indicated that a kill of 400 birds was sustainable, which is really 480 birds counting the cripples and those not retrieved, and which theoretically could be 880 birds if the hunt goes very quickly, and the hunters are a little slow on the Telecheck reporting, which it should with 400 hunters in a 4 square mile area. Add to that the 200-300 EP birds that the farmers will kill this year, and there is a potential loss of 1,100 birds from this fragile population. And there really isn’t any way to safeguard that from happening if the conditions are right.

What I said was that as a hunter and conservationist, that I was very concerned that the proposal to establish an Eastern Population Sandhill Crane hunting season was not based on sound, objective science, that it will fuel the anti-hunting sentiment and damage our present and future funding mechanisms. Like it or not, these eco-tourists folks are the future of conservation and therefore, hunting in Kentucky.

What I said was that out of the total KDFWR’s operating funds, roughly 35% (a number that is on the rise) comes from non-hunting sources that rightly contend that they should be represented at the table when these decisions are made. From what I could tell from attending the public hearings at KDFWR, the non-hunting groups that pay for over a third of conservation programs in the state had no representation at the table when the Commissioners voted unanimously to approve the hunt.

What I said was that KDFWR was blowing smoke when it made the declarative statement that this hunt “…will have no impact on viewing opportunities in late January and February when cranes are most abundant.” Logic dictates that after shooting at them for a month that the simple presence of humans watching and photographing them could be extremely stressful. Anybody who has ever been in the field during hunting season knows that the last thing that a hunted species wants to see after being shot at is another human being. The whole purpose for the birds layover in Kentucky is to rest and refuel in preparation for its continued migration. The pressure of being hunted will certainly disrupt this process and thus, the quality of the viewing periods. It is just common sense…something that the proposal is seriously lacking.

What I said was The main contribution of hunters to “build the EP population” has been to stop shooting them. KDFWR wasn’t even studying these birds until it decided to open a season on them, and then apparently it worked backwards to try to try to justify it. KDFWR has not offered any proof that it has “paid the bills for many decades to build the EP to current record numbers”, not one red cent. We now know that any habitat purchases were probably paid for out of non-hunting funds. This is just one of many baseless claims in the proposal.

Another baseless claim is that “Elevating sandhill cranes to game status allows and mandates fish and wildlife professionals to devote more of these resources to conservation of the species, and these conservation and wildlife habitat improvements benefit nongame species too.” The Eastern Population of Sandhill Cranes has increased “to its current record numbers” without KDFWR spending any of its “resources to conservation of the species”. The facts indicate that the cranes do not need KDFWR’s “protection”, “management” or “resources” to continue its slow recovery, so why not just continue with what we know has worked in the past, and that is to just leave them alone? They will live just fine in the same habitat that ALL of the other waterfowl live on, as they need no special attention. All that we really need to do is nothing.

What I said was that there are many criteria that should be considered other than the only one that KDFWR, and for that matter, most of the boys at your site, think is important. Just because we CAN shoot these birds doesn’t mean that we SHOULD. Removing protective status from a species that was very nearly extinct just a few years back is a very serious matter that should be done only as a result of extraordinary circumstances and not just on a vague whim like “we need to provide more hunting opportunities.”

All of this for just 400 hunters? Why?

First, who da’ heck are you? I don’t recall you even posting on that thread. I received 2 private messages from Trust Me though, one threatening banishment if I continued to defend myself in a “snippy” manner. I can see that the deception of what was really being said on that forum and by whom is in the fractured fairy tales realm. It seems that “real” hunters just have a problem with letting the facts speak for themselves, so they need to embellish them a bit, a la KDFWR style. It is the perfect metaphor for exactly what KDFWR did in the run-up and in this whole approval process of this sandhill crane proposal.

The fact is that I never used the terms that you have quoted me as saying, or anything like them. Of course, since you took down the thread on the KY Hunting Forums site, nobody will really be able to determine that for themselves. And now, you are even fudging about why you took the thread down, as it had been frozen long ago, so there was no opportunity for any of more of my comments to be posted. The thread stayed up for days after it was frozen until I linked it here for all to see, and THAT was when you decided that maybe you didn’t want the world to see how you guys make crane sausage.

Of course, I post on these sites for my own amusement, it is the driving force for why I hunt too. Does that make my points any less valid? And I assure you that I am very serious about both, as this is a matter of life and death of a majestic species…the oldest bird on earth. For the record, I ARE an ignorant hillbilly and knuckle dragger from Eastern KY, and I often breath through my mouth too. But I am your worst nightmare…a hunter with a brain.

Like in the KDFWR’s case to hunt the Sandhill crane, if the case against me for a causing a “train wreck” on your site was so strong, why do you feel the need to lie about what really happened over there…after destroying all of the evidence? I posted nothing on your site that I had not said in the two public hearings and posted on here. If THAT is enough to cause a train wreck, then maybe you need to check out where your tracks are going.

There are many things that we can learn from animals, but there are some things that we can learn from a judge too.

Judge Strickland, the original Orange County judge that was to hear the criminal case against Casey Anthony before he recused himself, said recently, “People don’t understand the nature of circumstantial evidence, and that circumstantial evidence IS evidence.”

Thank you for posting SmashDN.

Can you give us a link on how to go back and re-read my “rhetoric” so we all can see for ourselves the way I bullied you around with the facts, er ah, single-minded opinions, superflous and verbose non-sense and lashing out at all of those who dared to attack my affiliations, manhood, hunting credentials, character, er ah, contradict my “opinion”…funny, but that sounds like wa , wa, wha, whin, whining to me. I could be wrong.

Let me count the ways, er, facts, right here, right now:

I gave you the ICF foundation data. FACT.

I gave you the agency’s Operating Budget for Fiscal Biennium 2010-2012, out of the $49,988, 800 total funds, the agency funds (comprised of hunting licenses and fees) were $32,918,500, the federal funds (comprised of non-game programs) were $17,070,300. So, out of the total operating funds, roughly 35% (a number that is on the rise) comes from non-hunting sources. FACT

I gave you the major sources of that 35%: In fact, a recurring part of those non-hunting related operating funds comes from The Kentucky Heritage Land Conservation Fund that since mid-1990’s, KDFWR has bought 11,590 acres with $5,587,841 in KHLCF funds. KDFWR routinely gets 10% of this fund annually. To say that hunting and fishing licenses are footing all of the bills, as KDFWR contends in its “case” for the hunt, is both inaccurate and antiquated. The Heritage Fund’s sources include the nature license plate, the state portion of the unmined minerals tax and environmental fines.” FACT.

I gave you what KDRWR’s gave as a major reason to implement this proposal: At the June 3 meeting, we were also told by KDFWR that the implementation of this hunt was part of a long term strategy to make hunting more popular to our youth and thus, increase revenues for conservation through the sale of licenses and hunting equipment to them. FACT

I gave the you the facts about the future of hunting and thus conservation in KY: True enough, there is real reason to be concerned about the future funding of KDFWR and conservation in general. According to the National Survey of Fishing, Hunting and Wildlife Associated Recreation, Kentucky has a hunter replacement ratio of only .66, which means that only 2/3 of our youth in hunting families are continuing to participate in the sport. This means that the primary traditional source of funding habitat and resource management programs is unsustainable. FACT

I gave you the future source of funding for conservation and therefore, hunting in KY, not according to my single-minded opinion but KDFWR’s own web site, “wildlife watching is the fastest growing recreational activity in the world. In the U.S., wildlife watching generates more than $45 billion a year. In Kentucky, studies indicate that more people watch birds than play golf.” And the Barren River State Park/Fish and Wildlife hosted crane viewing weekends certainly speaks to the increased visibility, but that is a whole different thing than the hunt. These weekends are filled with folks who willing pay $30 a head, plus lodging and food expenses, just to see and photograph Sandhills in their natural habitat. According to folks close to this viewing program, The Wildlife Management Area could probably triple or quadruple the number of sessions and fill every one of them if they were properly advertised. This money making potential and good-will building towards all things in support of conservation seems lucrative. FACT

I gave you the fact that KDFWR Commissioner Jon Gassett has already had an ethics complaint filed against him because of apparent conflicts of interest issues regarding his private side businesses, Southern Wildlife Resources LLC, and as a licensed realtor with the Greenwood Land Company. He is selling to the public the very services and properties that he is promoting and approving in his official capacity as Commissioner of KDFWR. You have to hand it to him for his entrepreneurial spirit…it is a classic case of creating a need and then filling it…pure capitalism gone awry. Don’t take my word for it on this conflict of interest issues, look for yourselves:

http://www.southern-wildlife.com/Home_Page.html

and

http://www.greenwoodland.com/whats-new/dr-jonathan-gassett-joins-the-greenwood-land-team/

And I gave you my single-minded opinions (after all, they came from my own mind) as I stated them in my USFWS comments, about why I thought this hunt was a bad idea…isn’t that what a hunting forum is for? And as far as me “lashing out” at those who dared to contradict my opinions, shucks boy, with trust me up my arse for just getting a little snippy with those who were slinging barbed one-liners at me, there was no way for me even to defend myself, much less “lash out”. He was itching for a reason to ban me, close the thread and remove it(which he or one of his minions did twice), so do you really expect these fine folks to believe that malarkey? Hey, I even posted the best one, westkybanaid’s (Killer) post above and he even came on here to get another shot in about me forgetting to post his “stomping nest” (smashing down?) post. Is that why they call YOU that?

I think this is the perfect venue to re-hash this business, but just for Schlitz and bubbles, whar’s the URL? Of course, you realize that the moderators will ban YOU if you give it, but go ahead anyway. I feel trust me lurking in the background…

BTW, who are you really? Since we are becoming BFF, I would like to know who I am really talking to…I am operating under full disclosure here. Why are you still hiding behind that moniker.

Thanks for the warning…and I am sorry that you were bored offened. Please feel free to purge all of my comments whether they are deemed vituperative and boring or not (I learned a new word today). Your point is correct. Good bye.

And to quote myself, “But I hardly think this is the appropriate venue to re-hash that business.”

How about a bald eagle for Christmas? Seeing as y’all can’t afford Christmas presents and all…

3. Bald Eagles will provide a sporting challenge for hunters.

Puleeeze.

“I would also suggest if you are serious about limiting the impact hunters have on the crane population perhaps you would like to enter the tag lottery? It is open to residents and non-residents alike on the Department’s website.”

It is probably rigged just like the public comment period was, but I entered it anyway. I am sure that any and all “winners” names are cross referenced against any and all those who submitted comments that were critical or against the season on sandhills. NEVER underestimate Commissioner Jon Gassett as he has shown himself many times over to be a liar and a scoundrel.

You are un-American for eating bald eagles.